A Transitioning Workforce: People, Culture, and Change

Intro: Welcome to The Energy Shift, a podcast series focusing on the rapidly evolving energy landscape with hosts Luisa Fuentes and James Wright.

James Wright: Hello everyone, happy Friday and welcome back to another edition of the Energy Shift. So on today’s episode, we’re going to take a slightly different tack and not look at a particular technology or sector of the energy transition. Instead, we’re going to talk about people and specifically the shifting trends in hiring people during the transition, particularly in recent years across all experience levels. So to help me dive into this one, I’m joined today by my colleague Tamara Marcus who’s an associate on our project finance team and spends a lot of her time working on transition related energy projects. So Tamara, great to see you. And in addition to introducing yourself, why don’t you also tea up our guest today?

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, James. I’m so excited to be here today. And I’m really excited that we’re going to be joined by Dan McCarthy. He’s the CEO of OneSearch, which is a boutique recruitment firm that’s focused on shaping investment teams. And they conduct searches to hire both experienced engineer professionals around the world. And actually, that includes myself. So Dan, thank you so much for being here today.

Dan McCarthy: Well, thank you both for having me. It’s great to be on the podcast and with two of one such as many great placements with CIBC. So thanks for having me.

James Wright: Indeed. So excellent. Let’s get into it. I’ll kick off Dan. So we’ve been focusing on the hiring market with you and your team for a while now. And you and I have known each other a very long time, going back, I don’t know, 20 plus years. I’ve never asked you this. What was your first job? Who on earth would have hired a young 20 something Dan McCarthy?

Dan McCarthy: Look, that’s a very good question. I mean, my first job in recruitment specifically, I was actually sold into it, believe that or believe it not. I was an auditor with KPMG, which I joined straight from university. So I didn’t really know what I wanted to do with my life. I still don’t for that matter. I was the worst auditor they ever had. I mean, was a great place to be in terms of all the other young people there, but I was a terrible auditor, being honest with you. And I only stayed by merit of continuing to pass my ACA exams and also still not knowing what I wanted to do with my life. But at the end of the training contract, one of my superiors, his wife worked at Michael Page and she was looking to hire someone. And he told me that, you know, I was made for recruitment and I should go and talk to his wife. And it was only afterwards when I met her and thought, yeah, this, sounds like a really interesting job. It could be one for me. And I accepted the job. And, and then I found out afterwards that they got to collectively as a couple, they got a bounty used to call it, of £750. That was my price. And that was one of these things they used to have to, to save them going out to recruitment firms, to hire people. They would give you a bounty if you brought someone in yourself. So that was me. was sold into recruitment with Michael Page for £750. That was 23 years ago, which is exactly half of my life being 46 today. And yeah, there you go. That was my first job.

James Wright: The word bounty gives a whole new sort of aspect to the word headhunter. Now I kind of get it. Yeah, that’s amazing. Cool.

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, that’s a great story. Dan, once you started in recruiting, how did your career evolve and what exactly led you to become the founder in this space?

Dan McCarthy: Well, look, when I went to Michael Page, was the birth of the PFI PPP era, which Tamara, you won’t remember, but I know James Wright does, because he was there at that moment as well, I remember, with HSBC, because I used to call him and try and get him to leave. He was very loyal. He wouldn’t leave, but he was a modeler back in the day. I remember working for Nuno Villacca in London. No one knew what this PFI modeler thing was. No one at Michael Page knew what it was. And it was very much the sort of the professional services firms, the advisory firms that were building these modeling teams. And so, Michael Page just said, well, look, get him to do it. He came from KPMG. He probably understands it. And off I went. and, and, you know, for the next few years working with a different firm. Post Michael Page, which I helped to build, which is called Investigo. I got involved in building a lot of these modeling teams with KPMG and PWC Deloitte. And so unwittingly found myself in what was going to be the makings of the infrastructure investment community. Because many of those people then moved when the infrastructure investment industry was really born which was in 2006, that’s the date I put on it, which is when you started to see infrastructure funds start to form and evolve. It was very much these people that were some of their early hires. So look, in 2006, I set up OneSearch to focus very specifically on the infrastructure space as it was then. Nowadays, we think of it as something broader. We call it infrastructure and the energy transition. There’s many different kind of badges for it, but essentially it’s a way of saying that what was the infrastructure space, which was quite dull. A lot of people did not think it was a very sexy place. No other recruiters wanted to be in that space. can tell you that nowadays they all want to be in it and they all want to tell you that they’re an infrastructure specialist, but we really were the first to do that. And, you know, that’s where, that’s where it all came from. that was my springboard. And these early fledgling infrastructure funds needed help building, bringing in people with experience in doing deals. So they needed to look outside of their own fledgling sector. And many of these placements were, as I say, some of those modelers that I’d placed during those prior years. So I was very well placed to help these funds grow. And of course, you know, as we’ll go on to talk about the sector then really evolved and it became the home of renewables investing and more recently we’ve gotten to net zero and deep car that’s become a lot more of exciting place and hence a lot of more people wanting to be part of it.

James Wright: Yeah, no, for sure. And Dan, thinking about that journey and particularly your personal journey when you’ve shifted over here to being in the US now, you’ve been stateside with you and the family. How have you found just a difference in the market here and particularly the last couple of years? What are the trends you’ve seen around, as you said, the heart of the transition activity has really been here. You know, the US has been at the forefront of many of these new technologies and the new sort of funds and companies that have been set up to help spearhead those. How have you found that difference switching from being very UK based to US based and the sort of market here, just kind of culturally and in terms of the practice?

Dan McCarthy: Well, look, you know, I love the US. That’s the first thing to say. I got my break to come to the US in 2015. And that was thanks to Allianz. They trusted me with a very important mandate to come and build their infrastructure credit business in the US. And I really never looked back. I realized it was a market then from an infrastructure perspective specifically that was quite far behind Europe. It was more advanced on the, on the energy side, traditional energies, but from an infrastructure investment perspective, it was slower to develop. And, I saw a huge potential in it. It was obvious that it was going to be big growth. Again, it reminded me of my early days in London in the sense that no other recruiters were covering it. People didn’t even understand what infrastructure meant in the US. I really mean that. They thought you were talking about IT if you talked about infrastructure back in 2015. And so off the back of that Allianz mandate kept coming back to the US, built a bit of a network. And by 2018, we opened our office in the States and just a year after that, I moved here with my wife and three kids and the dogs and acquired a rabbit and all sorts of stuff. We’re well, we’re six years in now to our time in the States. And then in terms of where…where that’s gone in the meantime, I mean, the market’s grown tremendously. There’s huge growth over here. It’s really sort of spearheaded the growth of OneSearch globally. A huge part of that has been the move to the States, the growth of our business here. We also opened up in the Middle East, so we’re a truly global firm, but the US business is a big part of that, and it’s great to be part of this market.

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, Dan, that’s fascinating. Now that you’ve moved to the US and you’re working with people from all different levels of professionals, I kind of want to focus in a little bit on the junior pool and talk about maybe some of the trends you’ve seen from pre-COVID to post-COVID and what’s happening in that space now. What I’m seeing is there’s been a ton of growth in the last couple of years. I’m constantly being bombarded on LinkedIn as I’m sure many others are. So just wanted to hear from your perspective what you’re seeing and kind of what those general trends are.

Dan McCarthy: Yeah, well, look, it’s funny you should talk about the junior end Tamara, because this gives me a chance to plug our junior business, which was only set up last year. It’s called Infrassocs. And it had this been, as I hoped it would be the video podcast. I’ve got a pair of our Infrassocs to wave here on the camera. I don’t know, have you guys got your Infrassocs?

James Wright: Dan, think I do a pair of Infrassocs somewhere and I’m a kind recipient. Thank you.

Dan McCarthy: Well, this is not the season for those Infrassocs. They’re a winter garment. But it was just kind of a funny play on the word. So I knew in advance that people would take the mickey out of the name. Obviously, it’s an abbreviation of infrastructure associates. So we made some beautiful socks. But look on a serious note, the reason that we did that is there is a very vibrant junior market. From a recruitment perspective, it deserves its own real serious focus and it’s quite different from the more senior, retained search process. it’s a fast moving market. To Tamara’s point, I’m not surprised that Tamara gets a lot of these inbounds. There are many, many recruiters in the space these days. And, and look, there’s a lot of opportunity there, I think for, for junior people. What has this meant? I mean, well look, a couple of things. So through COVID in particular, there was just this huge burst of activity from 2020 to 2023, just an unbelievable demand for juniors. And we saw huge, a lot of movement. And as I’m sure you know, we were hiring for you guys through that. We were part of some real growth at CIBC in that timeframe. I think this has led to. Well, maybe there’s several issues that have led to it, but a market where juniors are more minded to move more frequently than they used to be in the past. When I think back to the earlier part of my career, you would expect juniors to be in banks three to five years as an average tenure, maybe on the buy side a little bit longer, but at least three years, maybe five years plus for junior mid-level folks in banks to stay. These days, if you take a sample, a cross section of the market, you’ll find one and a half to two years for juniors to stay in banking. And that means there’s just a lot more movement. There’s also a generational shift, I find, with Gen Z. That was another factor of COVID, it changed the paradigm completely in terms of, working practices. We saw the birth of, kind of remote working.  Still exists to some extent within some organizations. There’s a friction out there right now in terms of institutions that are back five days a week versus those that are not. There’s certainly a desire from a lot of people out there to not have to be in the office five days a week. I think juniors have more exit options these days. There are many more types of institution for them to go work for than they used to be. And that ability to work remotely with some organizations has given organizations that are maybe not in the major centers. So developers, for example, that might be based in far flung parts of the United States, but are prepared to hire people remotely, can tap into that very strong New York candidate base. So those are just some of the issues. 

James Wright: I’m curious as well, just going back on something you said before, just thinking about,  as you said, Dan, back in the day, you know, the sort of PFI, PPP world used to be a little bit, you know, sturgeon at times that say that, putting it politely, do you feel like with particularly what we’re seeing the state side with, you know, these transition businesses, as you said, developers, sponsors who are very active in it, banks like ourselves. Do you feel like from a talent perspective that’s been a real pull as well just because it’s kind of leading edge technology, tackling issues of our time, etc., etc.? Has that kind of changed the market at all?

Dan McCarthy: Yeah, there’s no question about that. I mean, to my earlier point, I mean, sexy is a strong word, isn’t it, to use about the sort of the matters that we’re discussing in any sort of recruitment conversation. But I think it is a pretty sexy space for people to be in. A lot of young people are really energized by the energy transition. They feel really invested in, you know, this drive towards net zero. And that’s the market that we’re in. So it’s really driven talent towards it. No disrespect to the old PFI PPP guys back in the day. They were dealing with kind of hospital projects and social infrastructure projects and building motorways and, and whatever else. It wasn’t as attractive a space. And the other thing I’d say on that is a lot of those guys are still around. It’s really funny if you watch the evolution of talent pools and I’ve been around long enough to see that. And people reinvent themselves. So a lot of the PFI PPP crowd or P3 as we would say in the States, although it never really, it never went anywhere near where PFI PPP went in Europe and other places. They became the renewables crowd largely. A lot of them, it’s a very similar skill set in many ways. And so they jumped onto that next big wave. And that’s what building your career is about in many ways, isn’t it? It’s looking for those shifts and positioning yourselves, positioning yourself for those shifts and being able to maximize the experience that you’ve built and trying to guard against going down a cul-de-sac career-wise from which you might not return. So you see those people reinvent themselves and then again into the, into the energy transition, into some of the, the new technologies that we’re seeing today that you referenced there that that organizations like yourselves are financing. So you see people there that are maybe some of the higher caliber individuals from those previous eras. But I would definitely, to your point, say that these days, the industry attracts a broader and deeper pool of really kind of energized modern talent.

James Wright: Yeah, no doubt. I’ve got a burning follow on, but go on Tamara, you jump in.

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, I just wanted to say I feel pretty called out in this because I actually studied environmental science and I was really focused on, you know, going down the climate change path and ended up finding myself in the energy space and working at a developer and then understanding how important financing was for developers and that’s what actually led me to banking. So, I really feel like I am very representative of that trend. But then obviously since I’ve started, I’ve now done infrastructure projects, I’ve done all kinds of things. So I’ve really like expanded the breadth as well. And one of the questions I kind of had about the fact that the junior pool has like increased so rapidly in the last couple of years is then a question about how is that trend kind of matched in a more like experienced or senior level roles? Is there a slowdown going on there or basically where are all these juniors going to end up going if there’s such a large base of them now? What are the opportunities looking like for their future positions?

Dan McCarthy: Yeah, well, look, I mean, first of all, to your previous point, Tamara, I think you just proved the point. There’s people like yourself that have been coming through and that was obviously picked up when you were coming through that recruitment process with OneSearch a couple of years ago now that people like yourself coming through have really got something to say about the industry already. They understand it. They’re bringing real understanding and enthusiasm and passion for the space. 23 years ago, that didn’t exist from my perspective, looking for just the basic skills and then hoping that people would come into the sector and kind of get along with it and grow to embrace it. But these days, there’s just that far greater pool of individuals like yourself who’ve come into it knowingly because you’re passionate about it. To your question, I think, look, even at the junior level, that hiring has slowed down from where… when I mentioned 2020 to 2023, that has slowed down somewhat since then. It’s still without question a growth sector, but it’s not to the almost crazy extent, I would say, as it was in certainly 2022. I think there are a few kind of things that I can observe from that. I think people…, the brightest and best of those that have been hired at the junior level over the last few years have absolutely got still fast progression ahead of them. I think perhaps it’s fair to say that in some cases, firms were so desperate to hire during that period that in some cases they hired people that may not quite make the grade and may not experience that level of progression. So I think in some places in the junior ranks, we do see some people that are not able to progress at the same speed now. I think the brightest and best juniors and people of your own vintage Tamara that are coming through and now starting to think about how can I be a leader? Where’s my pathway within organizations? The organizations need to make way for them and need to provide them with that path or risk losing that talent. That’s something that a lot of the clients and organizations that I work with are really mindful of. And I think at the senior end, you’ve now got a generation of senior people in this sector that have been around for quite a long time. And there’s very much a client driven market, as I would say, or let’s say an employer driven recruitment market right now. Which means that for some of those more senior people, if they’ve made it in their current firm, if they’re a partner, for example, on the buy side, if they’re deep into carried interest and that’s becoming realized, then they’re on a good path and people are likely to remain where they are. But I think for others, there’s now become quite a deep pool of people who perhaps are not on that path, are threatened by the advancement of some of the bright juniors beneath them and are looking for a home. So those are some of the issues in the market today.

James Wright: Yeah, I think that’s right. And also one thing I’m curious about, and this is maybe to both of you just tacking on from that, if we think about what’s driving those people at your end of the spectrum Tamara, the younger crowd who are thinking about where their careers are going and what’s important to them. One thing that comes up, I feel, the whole time at the moment in both recruiting conversations and even when we’re thinking about people retention is the importance of culture, right? So workplace culture, and core values, which I feel like, and Dan, this is more to you as well, going back a number of years, that never used to be a thing that came up. It comes up all the time now in every conversation, as it should do. But I feel like, Tamara, for your generation, should we say, this is increasingly really important, again, both from a recruitment perspective, when you’re joining a firm, thinking about who you’re going to be with, what are their values, particularly around the stuff we’re talking about with energy transition and…key things they’re supporting, but also just in terms of the culture of the place itself, the office. Where are you working day to day? What’s the mood on the floor? How do people manage people day to day? What’s the core values of the firm? That stuff’s really important now, right?

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, I would definitely say that that’s really a key driver. At least it was for me, definitely. I think especially given coming from that more environmental science background and obviously like banking is so diverse and kind of like what different teams are doing and different strategies of different groups, even in the PF space, that having that be aligned, I think is really important for people. And then similarly, I do think that once people do find where their values are aligned on more of a macro scale or kind of their interest, that tends to be replicated also in the personalities as well. It’s just something I found over time. So, yeah, I would say it’s really important and they actually kind of complement each other in a way, just because I think like-minded people tend to work better together and it just kind of all feeds into itself.

James Wright: (23:27.124)

Yeah, Dan, do you see that as well?

Dan McCarthy: (23:30.161)

Yeah, look, I mean, one thing I can say is that culture as a kind of a criteria for someone in that in their job search is more important today than it’s ever been in my career. In the early days, it was just accepted that there’s a particular culture in the world of finance and investment. And you know, you either you either buy into it or you don’t. And the world’s a very different place today. And to my earlier point, that people have many different options now in terms of the types of organization that they can go work for, the different types of institutions specifically that are into renewables, financing and investment. Within the banks, you see different cultures, different sizes of organization that are financing. On the buy side, you see very different types of organizations and culture is really important. It’s something that whether they’re junior or senior people. People are really, really keen to do their diligence on the culture that they’re joining and something that people are a lot more serious about.

James Wright: Yeah, no, for sure. And look, I’ll tell you from my seat, we spent a ton of time as a management team thinking about this because we know it’s really important, not just for getting people in the door, but also retaining them. So it’s something that, we spend a lot of time thinking about as we should. 

Tamara Marcus: On that culture aspect as well, how do you see diversity and inclusion being incorporated as there’s been like a more recent trend to kind of push back against it?

Dan McCarthy: I mean, look, it’s a huge topic and I genuinely see and have seen for many years a client base that’s really keen to have a diverse team. And honestly, I think the key underlying driver of that is that people feel that if they’ve got a diverse team, it’s a high performing team. I can say that for myself, if you go and look at the OneSearch website, you’ll see the team that we’ve got and there are people from all different backgrounds and walks of life. So I…I can really speak to that with experience of the fact that if you’ve got a room full of people that all think the same, came from the same kind of background, I think it’s a disadvantage. And I think our client base understands that. Recently, what we’ve seen is that DEI as like a doctrine is not being pushed in the same way as it was pre-2025. And obviously The Trump administration, that’s the elephant in the room, I feel like behind this question is, has been sort of really relaxed from a governmental perspective, the push on DEI as kind of a doctrine that organizations will kind of be harshly judged by. But I don’t think that’s changed organizations desire to still have a diverse team. But I think being honest, it has relaxed somewhat organizations to feel that they can really focus on hiring the best talent in any given situation, as opposed to feeling that they’ve got to meet certain quotas or other criteria. And this is a good chance for me to sort of make a plug on our registered charity in the UK. It’s also a nonprofit in the US. And it’s a program called Young Women into Finance. And what this was about. This came from that, that push back in 2016, 2017, we were hearing from our client base. We want to see 50-50 short lists. It was the talk of the town for a certain period of time. Every short list that you put forward for a job has to be 50-50. I was doing, I have exactly the same number of women as men. And that was a very frustrating thing for us because the organizations are telling us these are all the criteria. This is what we need to see in candidates. And we were not fishing as it were in a 50-50 talent pool. It was a very heavily male dominated talent pool. And Young Women into Finance was about getting out there and spreading the word to young women who might not have thought about a career in finance. Maybe they thought it sounded boring. Maybe they thought it’s not for them. And it was getting out and evangelizing this as a really great career path for young women. And being honest, one thing that diversity in that, in that, the market’s definition of diversity that I don’t, I still don’t think is adequately covered or given our time to is, is what I call diversity of thought, because you can have a room full of people that all look quite different, but they’re all totally the same. They went to the same, they all went to Yale. They all grew up in the nice gated community of some sort. It doesn’t give thought to socioeconomic diversity, people from different backgrounds and young women into finance from the start. Yes, it’s about gender diversity, but it’s massively about socioeconomic diversity. So we find the brightest young women from underprivileged backgrounds and we provide them with a path into frankly, jobs like yours. Over time, we give them mentoring, we put them through the CISI corporate finance qualification, and that’s been around for seven years now. We’ve got some great successors and young women that are on the same sort of track to be the next Tamara. So, so look, it’s in summary, it’s very important to me and OneSearch and Infrassocs. It’s very important to our clients. But I feel that nepotism and the lack of socioeconomic diversity should be the big talking point and it’s not.

James Wright: Yeah, no, for sure. We’ve been a proud supporter of you on that program, Dan. It’s a great initiative. 

Dan McCarthy: From the early days, CIBC has been a big supporter. You give us internships for our young women, is the, that’s the lifeblood of that program is let them come in. If they get that experience to come into your office, even for a week, a month, it doesn’t even have to be a full summer. That’s game changing for these young women.

James Wright: No, for sure. And Tamara, look, I think about your team, I think at last count, you’ve got, I don’t know, 15 different nationalities on your team. You’ve got people from banks, developers, buy side, sciences, technology, and that’s really the kind of, that’s the kind core of the team are different perspectives they bring to every transaction we look at. So your team’s a good example of that. All right. So Dan, that was excellent. And Tamara you as well. We could, we could talk about this for a long time. So, we’re going to, we’re going to call it a wrap there. And, I’m sure it’ll be revisiting many of these topics in the coming months. So what we’ll do, Dan, we like to kind of end each, each episode with, going around the horn on what shifted all of our weeks. And, I’m happy to kick off. I’m going to do a non-business one this week. It’s that. It’s that time of year that every parent has mixtures of, I think, joy and trepidation about… it’s the start of summer. And like many of us, we have kids around the house who have now decided that for the next couple of months, even the basics of getting out of bed and brushing your teeth in the morning is too much like hard work. So here we go. It’s the start of summer. I’m going to give a shout out there to all you fellow suffering parents. That’s what shifted my week. Tamara, what about you?

Tamara Marcus: Yeah, this week, what’s really shifted has been this new book that I picked up that is all about nuclear energy. And so I’ve been deep diving into all of these high profile nuclear energy disasters to actually understand what went wrong in them. 

James Wright: Give a plug. What’s the book called? I’m curious.

Tamara Marcus: The power to save the world, the truth about nuclear energy. 

James Wright: Wow. Okay. I’ll do a quick 30 second jump in here Tamara.. Dan will appreciate this from his reference to financial modeling days of years gone by. I worked on a nuclear project about 15 plus years, more than that, probably 20 years ago. And the challenge back in the day, believe it or not Tamara, was because these projects have, you have to kind of model them for like a hundred years and you’ll appreciate that, know, modelers are trying to do this stuff either monthly or kind of quarterly.

James Wright: Excel, Microsoft Excel back in the day ran out of columns.

Tamara Marcus: Yes, I just learned this recently in our training that you could only do like a certain amount of columns before and that was only updated in like 2003.

James Wright: There you go. Yep, so I’ve just dated myself with that comment, but that was my segue. All right, Dan, over to you.

Dan McCarthy: Yeah, I mean, I’ve now got two. I had my thing ready that shifted my week, but Tamara has just got me going on this because this is something I’m really passionate about actually, believe it or not, on the nuclear front. Tamara, you’re absolutely in tune with the new US administration because they’re absolutely behind nuclear as well. And it has, it was one of my ideas for what shifted my week because I’m an investor in a couple of nuclear companies that have been doing extremely well of late.. So there’s huge enthusiasm around nuclear. And this week you’ve seen in the UK an announcement. Tamara, to the point on the book that you’ve been reading, I’m sure it makes the point that nuclear is a very different thing now to what it was in the past and SMRs would appear to be far, far safer. And I thoroughly hope that’s the future. And I really believe, by the way, that is the future. And that’s how we’re going to meet the power needs that the United States has got a big problem. And you guys are part of addressing that problem. And I think that nuclear is going to be a big part of the solution very, very soon.

Dan McCarthy: (35:46.503)

So if I’m allowed to, I’ll just tell you very quickly my other one from, which is very recruitment centric. And I think it also relates to banks and funds and our marketplace somewhat week with, which is the announcement by JP Morgan, which you may have seen in the press around on cycle recruitment. And for anyone who doesn’t know what that is, it’s when graduates who’ve still not done a beyond internships or whatever, they’ve still not actually started that, their first full-time job with a bank. Yet they’ve already signed a contract to join XYZ private equity firm two years later. So banks like JP Morgan are hiring people, training them, knowing that they’re already losing them after two years and they’re going off to work for whoever it might be. In this case, Apollo was named, I’m sure there are many other organizations that, I know there are many other organizations that run on cycle recruitment programs. And it seems that we’re now seeing the death of on-cycle recruitment. JP Morgan says, if you’re in, if you’re part of an on-cycle process, we will terminate you. Apollo says, we’re not going to do this anymore. I think the rest of the market will follow in very quick order. And I think it’s a really good thing. I don’t think on-cycle recruitment is good for the candidate. How do you know you’re not going to love your job in a bank? How do you know you’re not going to join CIBC as a grad and absolutely love it and not want to go to Apollo or somewhere else after two years? You don’t. You know, it’s also, it’s going to mean lots more spots there within, you know, buy side institutions for Infrassocs to fill with bankers who have decided that’s what they want to do. Now they’ve had time to integrate into the industry and learn their trade. So I think it’s a win-win all round.

James Wright: There you go. Well, that’s a perfect wrap. You heard it here first on The Energy Shift. So, Dan, that was great. Thank you so much again. Really appreciate it. Great conversation as always. And Tamara, thank you for being on. You brought some fantastic perspective as well. So thank you both.

Tamara Marcus: Thanks so much.

Dan McCarthy: Agreed.

Outro: Please join us next time on The Energy Shift as we continue to tackle some of the hottest topics in the US energy transition landscape, providing fresh insights and viewpoints to help you shift your perspective.

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