Lowering emissions – SMRs are imminent

Lisa Raitt: Thank you for tuning in to The Raitt Stuff. I’m your host Lisa Raitt, former cabinet minister in Stephen Harper’s government from 2008 to 2015. I’m here now at CIBC Capital Markets and in this podcast, I’m going to share insights on current hot topics in the areas of public policy, politics and business with some guests along the way. Welcome back to the Raitt Stuff in our continuing. Time spent in the nuclear industry, I’m so very pleased today to have somebody who has great technical knowledge and understanding of the industry I have with us today, Jim Sarvinis, who is the managing director of power at Hatch. Hatch, as you probably are aware, is very much involved in small modular reactors and is very interesting to me in the sense that they are helping out around the world in many different places and I think have an unparalleled view into the nuclear industry and as well into the concept of small modular reactors. Thanks for joining me today, Jim.

Jim Sarvinis: Thanks, Lisa. It’s great to be talking.

Lisa Raitt: It’s really cool. So we hear a lot of people saying, What about SMRs? In fact, what I find really fascinating is that the younger generation people who are my sons ages like 20 or 18 years old know about small modular reactors. What is the one thing that you wish people knew about small modular reactors?

Jim Sarvinis: I think the main message that I’d like to get out there is that this technology is really imminent and it’s not in the realm of a science project. There’s 12 very capable technology developers who are right now engaged with the Canadian nuclear regulator and having their technologies getting ready to be licenced for use in Canada. We have at least three projects that are announced one at Canadian nuclear labs at Chalk River, and they’re looking at having a small modular reactor operational by 2026. There’s a project in the United States, the Advanced Reactor Development Programme, where there’ll be reactor operational in 2027 and back to Canada here at OPG. They’re hoping to have a reactor operating by the end of this decade. These are really imminent at this point, and I think they’re more than ready to to be part of the energy transition in Canada and beyond. The other thing I wanted to say about these new types of reactors is that they’re very different from the large nuclear reactors of the past and really, you can see in their name, small and modular. The small part means that they’re up to 300 megawatts in electrical output, but there’s a huge range in there, and some of the designs are are designed for, you know, a handful of megawatts and have different and interesting applications. So the fact that this is a smaller reactor than the traditional 1000 megawatt size range that we’ve seen around the world means that these projects will be more readily constructed and and manageable. And we should not be seeing the big schedule and cost overruns that plagued the nuclear industry in the past. And the modular aspect means that these reactors will be built in fabrication shops in a factory setting in much more controlled setting than would be traditionally encountered. When you’re building something at a greenfield site starting from an empty plot of

Lisa Raitt: Land and the fuel source itself, it’s always going to be uranium, I assume. But it’s different types of systems like what would be the difference in terms of fuel from, say, a CANDU reactor and what we’d be looking at in small modular reactors?

Jim Sarvinis: Great question, Lisa. It depends on the on the technology that we’re talking about, but generally the designs include slightly enriched uranium, whereas the CANDU reactors use natural uranium. So that’s one of the supply chain challenges that the SMR industry is working on. And you know, certain technologies have an established supply chain in the U.S. and other ones are are, you know, busy reaching that point.

Lisa Raitt: We talk a lot about small modular reactors in electricity generation. In fact, we had Ken Harwick on from OPG telling us all about it in the plans that they have for for their SMR. But it’s not the only application, is it? You can use it in more than just the generation of electricity.

Jim Sarvinis: Absolutely. That’s correct. And that’s that’s the exciting part about this. You know, as we look at the electricity system in Canada, we actually have a very, very clean grid from coast to coast with with few small exceptions. But generally, our electricity in Canada is really carbon free already where we really need to put some focus in there in other industries, manufacturing industries and and the like and also transportation. So many of these reactors can be applied for power generation, but other types of these reactors can be applied for applications that include power but also have industrial heat component. So, you know, providing heat for industries like the oil sands. But you steam currently, so this is a great potential application in the mining industry. A lot of the remote mines in Canada are currently using diesel generation, really, because that’s the only choice. There’s no grid in many of these locations, and diesel is the is the logical source of energy for these remote sites. But so mining is another application. The iron and steel industry is working hard now to decarbonise. And I think this goes along with hydrogen production very well. So many of these, especially the higher temperature small modular reactors, could be coupled well to make hydrogen. So there’s a lot of interesting applications and really applicable throughout Canada and beyond.

Lisa Raitt: And you mentioned remote locations. Would this also apply to places like the North?

Jim Sarvinis: Yes. We’ve got a lot of communities, as you know, in Canada that are small a thousand people or, you know, a handful of hundreds of people. And there are some specific technologies that are being developed at the micro slides. They’re calling these micro smears that could be applied in these remote communities.

Lisa Raitt: What’s the size of a micro SMR?

Jim Sarvinis: So there are technologies. For example, Westinghouse has a two megawatt size unit called the Vinci Reactor, so down to one or two megawatts in that range.

Lisa Raitt: Oh, that’s interesting. I wanted to change the topic for one second. I know that as Mars, for a lot of folks are going to be a natural part of our economy and they’re going to be helpful. But you know, in Canada, we’ve built a great supply chain in southwestern Ontario for the CANDU reactors and the nuclear industry itself, and we’ve had lots of companies spring up from it. It’s been a great economic generator for this part of the world that I live in. And I’m wondering, with the SMRs fabricated, as you pointed out in different places, is there still going to be the availability of a supply chain for Canada to take advantage of?

Jim Sarvinis: I think that’s a really important point to discuss. And you know, as you said, there’s a very strong supply chain in Canada that developed from decades of work started by ACL back in the 1950s. Many of those suppliers are in Ontario, but but it goes beyond that. There’s some suppliers in New Brunswick as they have a candidate reactor operating there and some specialised companies beyond Ontario. So I think these companies are really well positioned and have the right skills and the right expertise and know how and have a lot to offer in this small modular reactor business. I think the degree to which those companies will benefit from this new industry really depends on how these technology developers engage with the Canadian companies. And through many of the industry organisations, there’s a lot of push from the supplier side to be sure that they’re included and for the benefit of everybody that that would be great to see happen going forward.

Lisa Raitt: Yeah, for sure. Of course, when it comes to these kinds of technologies and when it comes to nuclear particular, just because of the safety and the attention on it and the expense of it, quite frankly, usually there’s going to be some kind of government involvement. What kind of public policy tools are out there in order to discourage or even encourage small modular reactors?

Jim Sarvinis: That’s a great point, Lisa. And it’s always been the case that countries that have a strong nuclear programme and export nuclear technologies have had great support from their governments. That was the case historically in Canada and ACL and promoting the CANDU technology around the world had many successes in that regard. So we, from an industry point of view, we’d love to see more support from all levels of government. You know, the support is coming, but there are certainly more things we believe that the federal government could do in future to help promote this industry.

Lisa Raitt: Now, one of the things that I know a lot of folks who watched the industry were hoping for was that the definition of nuclear would be included for the purposes of issuing green bonds for the federal green bonds. And it wasn’t included. It was actually excluded any reaction from folks who are involved in the nuclear industry here in Canada on that?

Jim Sarvinis: Sure. I mean, I start from a personal comment. I found that really disappointing that information that came out last week about the green bond programme. I’ve talked to many colleagues in the nuclear industry and they all share my disappointment. I honestly can’t understand why the nuclear technologies are not accounted for in that green bond programme. This is a technology that carbon neutral. There’s a lot of discussion about the by-products from nuclear, and the industry takes that very seriously, and it’s really the only industry that categorises and stores every milligram of by-product that’s that’s created in the process of making power from nuclear energy. So Canada is working on long term solutions on on where to. But spent fuel, and I think as a very responsible industry and part of a very secure and stable country like Canada, we have everything to do this properly. We have the smarts, we have the technologies and we really need that government support to finish that puzzle.

Lisa Raitt: Yeah, totally different topic. Just as our last question, I’m curious. I’m wondering, are you seeing, you know, engineering students, are you seeing students being attracted to the industry or is it a place where you have to actually actively go out there and recruit?

Jim Sarvinis: Actually, we’re seeing students extremely interested in nuclear, and that’s really heartening for me. We’re also seeing other professionals already in the energy industry or in other industries who have come to us and want to work in nuclear because they see that as part of the solution that the world needs to fight climate change. You know, people haven’t changed that much over the years, but I have noticed that the new grads coming into the company now really have that big picture in mind, probably more than I did 27 years ago when I started at Hatch. So that’s great to see that they’re worried about the future and want to work in industries that will have a positive impact and create positive change. And I always say that these new grads are smarter than the rest of us. So I think they’re on to something here and hopefully the rest of society will follow.

Lisa Raitt: Yeah, I feel the same way, too. Well, Jim, thank you so very much for joining me today and our quick chat with respect to small modular reactors and the opportunities that are out there, the challenges that the industry is facing and the fact that it really is a key component to getting our emissions down and helping fight climate change. Jim Sarvivis is the managing director of power at Hatch. Thanks a lot Jim.

Jim Sarvinis: Thanks, Lisa. It was a pleasure.

Lisa Raitt: Great. Thanks so much for tuning in. Now, if you have any questions or comments or even requests on topics to discuss. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Your interactions actually will make this better. I’m your host, Lisa Raitt, and this has been the Raitt Stuff I’ll talk to you next week.

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